[Lia]

This is such incredible info and so well investiugated, that it took me some hours to absorb

Thanks André!

[Smurfysmurf]

Andre,
as you know for me to believe all of this, it has to make sense to me, so let me try to put this in simple "Maureen" terms to see if I follow you correctly

All of the smurfs pictured above are Bully molds (except for the handful mentioned) that Schleich put in their 1985 catalog and gave them Schleich numbers.
Since they didn't put the Bully smurfette, Gargamel, Astro in the catalog but stayed with their own molds, you are saying they never sold these three except in the Schleich mold.

Is that it in a nutshell?

[André]

Maureen,

I will try to explain this as simple as possible, since I know you are hard to convince!!

On the first picture in this thread you have all the smurfs Bully made. Starting 1973 and stopped in end of 1979.

These are the only ones. No more no less.

When Schleich got the worldwide license 1 january 1980 they got all the Bully molds.
And since Schleich wanted to sell these ( and probably also get back their own molds made between 1965 and 1972, which was in Bullys possesion) they added these in their 1980 catalogue.

So all smurfs with articlenumbers 20001 to 20067 are all the smurfs Schleich had made until 1980.

So when they added the Bullymolds the numbered all of them 20068 to 20121.

BUT there were 4 of the molds that did not get any articlenumber. Bullys version of Astro, Smurfette, Digger and Gargamel.

If you think of this in buisnessterms. Why?? Always, even today, if you want to sell something you give it a articelnumber. Schleich always do so.

The only reason I can think of, for not giving them any articlenumber is if they were meant to replace their own versions. But they did not. They sold their own versions all the time after 1980.

And for example for both kicker and tennis they kept their version and gave the Bullyversion a new number. So if they wanted to sell these they would have given them new numbers.

So here are the facts about these 4.

They were never given articelnumbers by Schleich.
I have never seen any of them with Schleichmarkings.
I have never seen them in any Schleichcatalogue.
I have never seen them on a Schleichposter.
I have actaully never seen them with any traces what so ever that could link them to Schleichproduction, painting, selling.
etc etc.

So if you check a poster from around 1984 with all smurfs pictured, you would probably end up finding all Bullymolds except these 4.

Not sure this poster is from that exact time but I think you understand what I mean.

[André]

Maureen,

If you check the Stefans pictures from the Schleich 1983 booklet. There you find the actual versions sold.

All Bully smurfs are in this except the 4 mentioned.

Another intresting thing in this booklet is that you see that this year the Bully indian and angler was sold with loose accessories.

When Bully gave these molds to Schleich they were onemold smurfs.

So Schleich must have changed this. Still they are marked Bully!!
This also tells us Schleich had to use the Bully marking on these molds eventhough changing them.

[André]

So if you would like to know the Bully articlenumbers on the Gargamel it is 1011/1.

And it was made in 1975 and sold between 1975 and 1979 by Bully.

I think these are the only possible markings.

Handetched Bullymarking. I have the handetched version with orange shoes and red shoes.

And printed Bullymarking.

I will add this later when we get to the Schleich Gargamel also, but think it could be good to add this to this thread for additional information.

The Bully digger has Bully articlenumber 1010/13. No Schleich articlenumber.

[André]

On the same poster you have it pictured "live" also so you can see that it is this version with finger pointing up.

Regarding the Astro and Smurfette it was like this:

When Bully got the old Schleichmolds they used these in the beginning and removed the Schleichemblem.

But then made their own versions and only sold these versions after 1975 and all the way to the end of 1979.

When Schleich got their own molds back they kept their own versions of Astro and Smurfette. And never sold the Bully versions.

This is what I am convinced about and for me everything about these things gets clearer and clearer the more I investigate!!

So thanks for the pictures you are posting. They help me a lot in figuring out these things.

[André]

But Maureen,

I have to add this also. Not all things are simple to explain.

There are still questions not answered!! And if you want to understand everything I guess you have to be intrested in markings, paintversions, molds etc. But I really believe you have this intrest.

It is like trying to explain how a engine works. It is very simple but sometimes hard to explain.

So here are the things I am pretty sure about.

Schleich makes smurfs from 1965 to 1972.

Bully makes the Smurfs between 1973 and 1979. And sells the Schleichsmurfs also. The old molds with removed Schleichemblem.

Schleich makes smurfs between 1977 and 1979. During this time both companies makes smurfs. But Schleich are not allowed to sell smurfs in for example Germany and Sweden.

From 1980 Schleich is the sole manufacturer, distributer and seller of the smurfs worldwide. They also gets all the Bully molds and start selling them 1980. Bully are not allowed and makes no more smurfs after 1 january 1980!!! But Schleich sells them with Bullymarkings many years after 1980.

But there are still thing we don´t know.

When Bully sold smurfs in the end of 1970s and Schleich started making these again. I know that Bully sold the newly made Schleichsmurfs also!!

We all know about the family connections between Bully and Schleich and this off course could help the companies to finding ways to sell them. But still they are companies. For example they can´t mark the smurfs with both Schleich and Bully at the same time, right??

So some of the questions I have not answered yet is:

Did Bully sell all the Schleichsmurfs made between 1977 and 1979 in Germany?

Did Schleich sell any Bullysmurfs outside Germany between these years?

There are smurfs marked Bully Hongkong. Did Bully make these before 1980?

And there are many more questions!!

But I guess I will get these answers later.

And I have learned a lot since I started these threads and will probably learn a lot more before finishing the normal smurfs.

[Smurfysmurf]

Oh my goodness, Andre...you had me convinced after your first posts..I just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly

Thanks for the additional explanations though...

You'll be ready to get a doctorate in smurftology before it's all said and done. We'll just all have to get together and hand you the certificate and title

and yes, you are correct...I wouldn't ask questions or for clarification if I wasn't interested

[Syd Smurf]

Very interesting André. I enjoyed reading through this and will also like looking through all of the marking threads. Good Job

Dyar

[André]

Very interesting André. I enjoyed reading through this and will also like looking through all of the marking threads. Good Job

Dyar

Thanks Dyar.

I hope you will have time to go through your smurfmarkings also, when you get the time!! I bet you could add some ( or a lot ) markingvariations also!!

[André]

Another thing you may have noticed that also tells us Schleich only sold the Bullymolds I told you about is, if you check the posters and the catalogues.

Even the Johan and Pewitt are placed together with the Bullysmurfs.

So they added all the smurfs they wanted to sell of the Bullymolds after the ones they made for the 1980 catalogue. Then added the Bullymolds in this catalogue. 20068 to 20121.

And then they also added the Johan and Pewitt with numbers 20498 and 20499.

They added the new Schleichsmurfs made after 1981, eventhough with lower numbers, after the Johann and Pewitt!!

So they kept the Bullysmurfs together eventough the numbers, tells us 20498 and 20499 should be last.

[André]

As you all know I have been trying to figure out which order the Bully smurfs were sold.

And I am getting more and more conviced that the picture I took and show here is the correct one. On this you see the years the smurfs were made by Bully and then sold approximatly the year after.

The reason for this order is the posters I have, the posters Stefan showed us, and last but importnat the markings.

As you know I told you about the markings Bully used 1977. Circulair logo with West Germany around. In catalogues made for collectors they have different years on these and this tells us they were not sold in the same order as the articlenumbers. But this is not correct. Bully gave the smurfs their articlenumbers in the same order they were sold.

And thanks to Dyars picture on his website I give you here all the smurfs sold 1978 by Bully. This is also a picture from 1978 like the other catalogues and therefore a fact. No information created in any catalogue many years after they were made.

So this is another "proof" that the order I give you is correct.

The smurf I will add tomorrow in the variationthreads, 20099 Cake, was the last one Bully made this year. And also the last one with the circulair logo under the feets. Just like on the picture.

So Maureen,

I guess this is the closest you will come to the 1978 Bully catalogue.

So the only catalogue we now miss from Bully is the 1979 year catalogue. If you go by the markings Bully made 5 smurfs that year: angler, indian, pirate, pupil and Scot. And the markings have not failed me so faar so until I get any different information I will stick to that "fact".

I maybe should also add that these years can "differ" by a +- maybe 6 months, because just like Schleich do today Bully did not sell them exactly 1 January these years but could be releases like may, september etc. But still sold in the exact same order as given articelnumbers.

And also like said before: Bullys variations of Astro, Smurfette, Digger and Gargamel were never sold by Schleich so therefore only sold until 1980. All other Bullysmurfs were sold by Schleich with Bullymarkings for approximatly 4-5 years before changing to Schleichmarkings.

[André]

You can also see on the picture that they had changed to the newer molds then.

Maybe the ballerina can have green lipstick on this picture???